Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN

The issue here is that compounds appear in the CHEMCATS database because
they are being offered for sale, are retrieved by a structure search, are=
 
cited by an examiner in a search report solely by the CHEMCATS accession
number - and then disappear from CHEMCATS because an updated version of
the catalog no longer contains the compounds. Searching on the CHEMCATS
accession number, even if the number is provided in the correct format,
produces no answers. I have run into the same problem of trying to
retrieve information from examiner search reports where only the CHEMCATS=
 
number is provided and the compound to which it corresponded is no longer=
 
in the database.

CAS's position, when I asked them about it, seemed to be that they simply=
 
loaded the catalogs, and if a compound was no longer available in a
catalog, it could no longer be retrieved. I realize there is probably no=
 
commercial motivation for CAS to provide some means of accessing this
deleted material, but the current situation creates a difficult position
for people trying to respond to patent office actions.

In fact, I find the practice used by some examiners of identifying cited
references solely by accession numbers from a subscription service, e.g. a=
 
CA abstract number, WPI accession number, or CHEMCATS number, to be less
than desirable. As long as the information is still available, people
with STN access, WPI subscriptions, etc. can retrieve the information at
nominal cost, but not everybody has easy, or cheap, access to these
sources.

  - Sara Davis






"BOB BUNTROCK" <buntrock16_at_verizon.net>
15-Jan-2008 18:42
 
To
"PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox" <piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com>
cc

Subject
Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN






The existence of CAS Registry Numbers with no citations to published
literature has been periodically discussed on the Chem Information List
(CHMINF-L) and in publications by me and CAS. Potentially, there are
several reasons. "Phantom CASRN" often appeared in the early days of the=
 
CA
Registry System, typically when the preparation of polymers were patented,=
 

often from previously undescribed monomers for which no other data or
information was provided. Personally, I called these compounds "bottle
off
my shelf" or "Nya, Nya, I have some and you don't" (not being anything
even
resembling a patent attorney or agent, I get a little sarcastic at times;=
 
sorry 'bout that). It is a frustrating situation, especially when, even
after several years or even decades, these CASRN are unique listings in
the
REG file, still with no citations to any other publication.

-- Bob Buntrock
Orono, ME

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthews, Michael: #CIPO - OPIC" <Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca>
To: "PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox" <piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem


This indeed will be a recurring problem. The fact that there is a
registry
number for each compound provided by CAS does provide evidence that the
compound was made. There have been other instances where I have found
matches from a substructure search in CAS Registry database, but there has=
 

been no citation associated with the compounds. Speaking with CAS about
these instances, I was told there is a possibility that a compound was
made
by a company and they received a registry number for the compound;
however,
they do not want to disclose any information on the focus of their current=
 

research. By having the compound registered with CAS, this prevents
competitors from obtaining patents on the compounds, without disclosing
who
it is doing the research in this area. I know in the past here at CIPO,
these CAS Registry numbers are still cited against the applicant.

I hope this helps.

Michael


Michael Matthews
Organic Chemistry Searcher/
Chercheur de la Chimie Organique
CIPO/OPIC Patents/Brevets
Organic Chemistry/Chimie Organique
50 Victoria St., Place du Portage,
Phase 1 - 1408A
Gatineau, Québec
Canada
K1A 0C9
Tél./Tel.: (819) 997-8134
Courriel/Email : Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: Sandy Burcham [mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:42 AM
To: Matthews, Michael: #CIPO - OPIC; PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem

Michael - thanks very much for your reply - I'll try that - however , the=
 
larger question of retrievability really bothers me - if there are cpds
cited as prior art by examiners (or anyone else) there should be a way to=
 
retreive them even if they are no longer available - and depending on the=
 
reason for unavailability - should they have been in a catalog in the
first
place?

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Matthews, Michael: #CIPO - OPIC" <Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca>
>Sent: Jan 15, 2008 10:36 AM
>To: Sandy Burcham <cass123_at_earthlink.net>, "PIUG Discussion List @
Listbox"
><piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com>
>Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem
>
>Hi Sandy,
>
>This concerns me, as I work at CIPO as an organic chemistry searcher on
>prior art. What may help is the supplier name and entry date provided in=
 

>the CAS Registry entry. The Supplier is "Ambinter" and this particular
>registry number you gave was entered on August 16, 2002. It may help
then,
>to find a catalogue from Ambinter from the year 2002; here you will
>probably find your compound. As for the number format, I have not been
>able to find this number in the CAS Registry database, nor on Ambinter's=
 
>web site. Even searching the structure at Ambinter there are not hits,
>this is probably because they no longer supply the compound(s). I would=
 
>contact them and request a copy of their 2002 catalogue (which I'm sure
>they must have somewhere).
>
>Good luck and keep me posted!
>
>Michael
>
>
>Michael Matthews
>Organic Chemistry Searcher/
>Chercheur de la Chimie Organique
>CIPO/OPIC Patents/Brevets
>Organic Chemistry/Chimie Organique
>50 Victoria St., Place du Portage,
>Phase 1 - 1408A
>Gatineau, Québec
>Canada
>K1A 0C9
>Tél./Tel.: (819) 997-8134
>Courriel/Email : Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sandy Burcham [mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:27 AM
>To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
>Subject: [PIUG List] search problem
>
>Help! In an International search report from 2004, a list of relevant
>compounds were reported retrieved from Chemcats having a weird and
>untraceable order number format.
>
>the format is: 094_12494-10292-103 (with different numbers for each
>entry. ) One cpd was given the following registry number 444054-63-1
>corresponding to 094_12313-11057-104. this cpd is in registry but no
longer
>in Chemcats although the registry entry identifies it as being in
chemcats.
>I sent this information to CA and was informed that as new catalogs are
>entered and some cpds removed retrievability disappears. However, no one=
 

>at CA could identify the order number format. I have over 30 of these
cpds
>to idnetify. Can any of you help me withthe format? And also, once
these
>cpds are identified as prior art, shouldn't they be retrievable - perhaps=
 

>in another database of Removed cpds?
>
>Help! Please! Sandy Burcham
>610-630-6616
>cass123_at_earthlink.net


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Received on Wed Jan 16 2008 - 14:48:58