Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs

At least by going to the CA REG file, you can determine which compopunds ha=
ve no literature or patent citations. As metnioned previously, I and other=
s have written extensively on the CAS Registry System (1,2,3). Take the ti=
me to learn more about it and use it effectively.

In the first ref., I cite and dispel several "myths" attributed to CASRN. =
Myth 4, "All CASRN in the various sources are assigned and used accurately =
and precisely". My terse comment, "not completely true". Consult these re=
ferences and citation therein for a more complete story.

Bottom line: CASRN and the CAS Registry system are far more accurate than =
any other chemical identification system going. The latter, unlike many ot=
her sources including chemical catalogs, is a living, edited and corrected =
document. My advice to anyone writing patents is document chemical compoun=
ds accurately and redundantly. As before, document ANY electronic source w=
ith a date last accessed and preferably with your own electronic and paper =
copy. Caveat emptor.

The PIUG Vendor/producer Committee has a continuing interest in the various=
 sources patent information professionals use in both searching and produci=
ng patent documents. I'm the liaison for the status and use of files such =
as PubChem. Since the basic input for PubChem comes from suppliers and pro=
ducers, the file does have significant accuracy and ease of correction prob=
lems. Please furnish me with any input you have on the use of this interes=
ting but often problematic file.

-- Bob Buntrock
Buntrock Associates
buntrock16_at_verizon.net

1. Chemical Registries--in the Fourth Decade of Service, R. E. Buntrock, JC=
ICS, 41, 2001, p. 259-263 (and refs. therein)

2. Chemical Abstracts Service Registry System: History, Scope, and Impacts.=
, JASIS 48, 1997, 349-360.

3. J. E. Blackwood, et al. [CAS], JCICS 31, 1991, 204-212.

----- Original Message -----
  From: Matthews, Michael: #CIPO - OPIC
  To: BOB BUNTROCK ; PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs


  Hi Bob,

  that is indeed the danger here. How can one be assured the chemicals tha=
t do have a registry number assigned to them have indeed been made if there=
 is no patent or journal prior art? Even a CAS RN does not guarantee that =
one.

  Hmm ...

  Michael.

  Michael Matthews
  Organic Chemistry Searcher/
  Chercheur de la Chimie Organique
  CIPO/OPIC Patents/Brevets
  Organic Chemistry/Chimie Organique
  50 Victoria St., Place du Portage,
  Phase 1 - 1408A
  Gatineau, Québec
  Canada
  K1A 0C9
  Tél./Tel.: (819) 997-8134
  Courriel/Email : Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca





---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
  From: BOB BUNTROCK [mailto:buntrock16_at_verizon.net]
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:04 PM
  To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
  Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs


  ï»¿
  As Eric Shively said, situations like these demonstrate the value of usin=
g CASRN to accurately describe chemical compounds (as well as good nomencla=
ture). Citing compounds only from Chemcats listings is dangerous. Citatio=
ns to material in any online and e-version of any database, including docum=
ent references, needs to have some sort of date stamp or "last accessed on =
..." indication.

  I would hope that any compound in Chemcats (and therefore in someone's ca=
talog) has been made at some time or another. I would hope that suppliers =
of chemicals would not go on "fishing expeditions" and list news compounds =
that the feel they could make if they had a customer. I suppose stranger (=
and more devious) things happen. Caveat emptor.

  -- Bob Buntrock
  Orono, ME
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Sandy Burcham
    To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
    Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 10:08 AM
    Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN


    Dear Eric - I very much appreciate your response. I was rxtrtroubled t=
o discover just how widespread this problem appears to be and was very much=
 concerned about losing prior art retrievability. Since some of the cpds =
listed in Chemcats have never been made giving them a CASRN might not be wi=
thin the parameters associated with that file , but since they have been pu=
blised in a catalog, cited as prior art - perhaps CA could create a file of=
 withdrawn CPDS having someother means of being identified .

    Sandy




      -----Original Message-----
      From: "Shively, Eric"
      Sent: Jan 16, 2008 9:57 AM
      To: "PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox"
      Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN


      Regarding the question raised by Sandy Burcham, the information on c=
ommercially available substances in CHEMCATS is provided by the vendors of =
those substances. They may withdraw a chemical from commercial availability=
 at any time, at which point the record would be taken off of CHEMCATS. Ho=
wever, after a CHEMCATS listing is withdrawn, the substance record still ap=
pears in the CAS Registry, along with the vendor's name as the source of th=
at substance's registration. So users can contact the vendor for more infor=
mation as needed.

      The concern addressed in this recent discussion highlights the value =
of identifying substances of interest by CAS Registry Number, because those=
 records will continue to be available in the CAS Registry, which is the au=
thoritative source. However, we recognize there is a problem if someone ch=
ooses to cite the CHEMCATS record or the supplier's chemical ID number as p=
rior art. We will consider means of helping users deal with that problem.=
 

      Eric Shively

      CAS




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Sandy Burcham [mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net]
      Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:57 AM
      To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
      Cc: piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com
      Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN


      Wendy Warr provided me wirh Ambinter's website and e-mail information=
. Ambinter responded to my request saying that the weird numbers were not=
 their numbers either. So far no one has been able to identify the number =
format. I am extremely upset about what is disappearing prior art. The pe=
ople at CAS who are involved with Chemcats couldn't identify the format eit=
her but didn't seem bothered by the fact that the information hd come from =
their database originally and was no longer there-

      Can we, as searchers, allow this prior art to disappear???

      Sandy Burcham

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Received on Fri Jan 18 2008 - 16:08:01