Hi Sarah,
I was unaware of any chemicals in CHEMCATS that do NOT have a CAS RN assign=
ed to them. Is this for real? It was my impression that CHEMCATS is the c=
hangeable file (whenever a compound is taken out of a catalogue, it is remo=
ved from CHEMCATS) but every compound in CHEMCATS receives a Registry Numbe=
r and is listed in the Registry file database. In this way, CAS RN for tha=
t compound remains in the Registry file, and the Registry file would remain=
a stable database with nothing removed, only added. As far as compounds i=
n CHEMCATS without RN's, I have never came across this. This would be a bi=
gger problem than I thought initially (and that is big enough on it's own -=
but manageable as long as the RN's remain).
Michael
Michael Matthews
Organic Chemistry Searcher/
Chercheur de la Chimie Organique
CIPO/OPIC Patents/Brevets
Organic Chemistry/Chimie Organique
50 Victoria St., Place du Portage,
Phase 1 - 1408A
Gatineau, Québec
Canada
K1A 0C9
Tél./Tel.: (819) 997-8134
Courriel/Email : Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca
________________________________
From: Sandy Burcham [mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:00 PM
To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs
Let's do a reality check!
1.Cpds from the catalogs in the Chemcats file are cited as prior art in sea=
rch reports.
2. Not all of these cpds have CAS Rn's
3.Too frequently these cpds are removed from the catalog -
4. It is difficult, if not impossible, to find these cpds
5. This is unacceptable ( or should be)
6. The easiest method would be for the database producer to create a databa=
se of removed cpds with an identifying number connecting them to original r=
eference until there is a way for all of them to have Registry Numbers -
Sandy Burcham
-----Original Message-----
From: BOB BUNTROCK
Sent: Jan 18, 2008 9:55 AM
To: "PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox"
Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs
At least by going to the CA REG file, you can determine which compopunds h=
ave no literature or patent citations. As metnioned previously, I and othe=
rs have written extensively on the CAS Registry System (1,2,3). Take the t=
ime to learn more about it and use it effectively.
In the first ref., I cite and dispel several "myths" attributed to CASRN. =
Myth 4, "All CASRN in the various sources are assigned and used accurately=
and precisely". My terse comment, "not completely true". Consult these r=
eferences and citation therein for a more complete story.
Bottom line: CASRN and the CAS Registry system are far more accurate than=
any other chemical identification system going. The latter, unlike many o=
ther sources including chemical catalogs, is a living, edited and corrected=
document. My advice to anyone writing patents is document chemical compou=
nds accurately and redundantly. As before, document ANY electronic source =
with a date last accessed and preferably with your own electronic and paper=
copy. Caveat emptor.
The PIUG Vendor/producer Committee has a continuing interest in the variou=
s sources patent information professionals use in both searching and produc=
ing patent documents. I'm the liaison for the status and use of files such=
as PubChem. Since the basic input for PubChem comes from suppliers and pr=
oducers, the file does have significant accuracy and ease of correction pro=
blems. Please furnish me with any input you have on the use of this intere=
sting but often problematic file.
-- Bob Buntrock
Buntrock Associates
buntrock16_at_verizon.net
1. Chemical Registries--in the Fourth Decade of Service, R. E. Buntrock, J=
CICS, 41, 2001, p. 259-263 (and refs. therein)
2. Chemical Abstracts Service Registry System: History, Scope, and Impacts=
., JASIS 48, 1997, 349-360.
3. J. E. Blackwood, et al. [CAS], JCICS 31, 1991, 204-212.
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthews, Michael: #CIPO - OPIC <mailto:Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca>=
To: BOB BUNTROCK <mailto:buntrock16_at_verizon.net> ; PIUG Discussion List =
@ Listbox <mailto:piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs
Hi Bob,
that is indeed the danger here. How can one be assured the chemicals tha=
t do have a registry number assigned to them have indeed been made if there=
is no patent or journal prior art? Even a CAS RN does not guarantee that =
one.
Hmm ...
Michael.
Michael Matthews
Organic Chemistry Searcher/
Chercheur de la Chimie Organique
CIPO/OPIC Patents/Brevets
Organic Chemistry/Chimie Organique
50 Victoria St., Place du Portage,
Phase 1 - 1408A
Gatineau, Québec
Canada
K1A 0C9
Tél./Tel.: (819) 997-8134
Courriel/Email : Matthews.Michael_at_ic.gc.ca
________________________________
From: BOB BUNTROCK [mailto:buntrock16_at_verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:04 PM
To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN; catalogs

As Eric Shively said, situations like these demonstrate the value of usin=
g CASRN to accurately describe chemical compounds (as well as good nomencla=
ture). Citing compounds only from Chemcats listings is dangerous. Citatio=
ns to material in any online and e-version of any database, including docum=
ent references, needs to have some sort of date stamp or "last accessed on =
..." indication.
I would hope that any compound in Chemcats (and therefore in someone's ca=
talog) has been made at some time or another. I would hope that suppliers =
of chemicals would not go on "fishing expeditions" and list news compounds =
that the feel they could make if they had a customer. I suppose stranger (=
and more devious) things happen. Caveat emptor.
-- Bob Buntrock
Orono, ME
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandy Burcham <mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net>
To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox <mailto:piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listb=
ox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN
Dear Eric - I very much appreciate your response. I was rxtrtroubled to=
discover just how widespread this problem appears to be and was very much =
concerned about losing prior art retrievability. Since some of the cpds l=
isted in Chemcats have never been made giving them a CASRN might not be wit=
hin the parameters associated with that file , but since they have been pub=
lised in a catalog, cited as prior art - perhaps CA could create a file of =
withdrawn CPDS having someother means of being identified .
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: "Shively, Eric"
Sent: Jan 16, 2008 9:57 AM
To: "PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox"
Subject: RE: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN
Regarding the question raised by Sandy Burcham, the information on com=
mercially available substances in CHEMCATS is provided by the vendors of th=
ose substances. They may withdraw a chemical from commercial availability a=
t any time, at which point the record would be taken off of CHEMCATS. Howe=
ver, after a CHEMCATS listing is withdrawn, the substance record still appe=
ars in the CAS Registry, along with the vendor's name as the source of that=
substance's registration. So users can contact the vendor for more informa=
tion as needed.
The concern addressed in this recent discussion highlights the value of=
identifying substances of interest by CAS Registry Number, because those r=
ecords will continue to be available in the CAS Registry, which is the auth=
oritative source. However, we recognize there is a problem if someone choo=
ses to cite the CHEMCATS record or the supplier's chemical ID number as pri=
or art. We will consider means of helping users deal with that problem.
Eric Shively
CAS
________________________________
From: Sandy Burcham [mailto:cass123_at_earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:57 AM
To: PIUG Discussion List @ Listbox
Cc: piug_discussion_list_at_v2.listbox.com
Subject: Re: [PIUG List] search problem, CASRN
Wendy Warr provided me wirh Ambinter's website and e-mail information. =
Ambinter responded to my request saying that the weird numbers were not t=
heir numbers either. So far no one has been able to identify the number fo=
rmat. I am extremely upset about what is disappearing prior art. The peop=
le at CAS who are involved with Chemcats couldn't identify the format eithe=
r but didn't seem bothered by the fact that the information hd come from th=
eir database originally and was no longer there-
Can we, as searchers, allow this prior art to disappear???
Sandy Burcham
________________________________
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Received on Fri Jan 18 2008 - 19:33:47
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